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Inactivity messages[edit]
Discussion split from the withdrawn resysop request for Kaisershatner. Primefac (talk) 23:21, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Reading the inactivity messages Kaisershatner was sent, this seems like very poor communication. The most recent messages on his usertalk didn't mention three year inactivity, and the old one that did (waaay back in 2015) implied any activity was sufficient:
"If you wish to have these permissions reinstated should this occur, please post to the Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard and the userright will be restored per the re-sysopping process (i.e. as long as the attending bureaucrats are reasonably satisfied that your account has not been compromised, that your inactivity did not have the effect of evading scrutiny of any actions which might have led to sanctions, and that you have not been inactive for a three-year period of time). If you remain inactive for a three-year period of time, including the present year you have been inactive, you will need to request reinstatement at WP:RFA."
This is really poor stuff, Wikipedia. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:11, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Dweller: the most recent messages are at User_talk:Kaisershatner#Pending_suspension_of_administrative_permissions_due_to_inactivity. We normally use a standard message for these notices and subsequent removal, from Template:Inactive admin - which links to the current policy. Improvements to that template are always welcome. — xaosflux Talk 16:21, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- IMO this is perhaps a policy that should be revisited. Basically, certain users are immediately ineligible for resysop at the time of desysop. To avoid edge cases where a single edit or admin action makes the difference (feels a lot like WP:LAWYER to me), we should instead make the requirements something like 500 edits and 100 admin actions in the last 5 years. If you fail to reach either threshold in 4 years, you get a warning to increase your activity in the next year. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:41, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- @King of Hearts: changes to the inactivity policy have been quite contentious, but feel free to start a discussion at WT:ADMIN. — xaosflux Talk 16:43, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- One benefit of this is that it is very difficult to game. Currently, an admin can avoid desysopping entirely by making one token edit every 11 months. Under my system, let's say an admin is mostly inactive for 4 years, and they get the warning. If their understanding of policy is no longer in touch with the community, they will likely make plenty of mistakes in their 100 requisite actions, and that alone would be grounds for desysopping for cause. If an admin manages to show up once every 5 years to marathon 100 actions and actually gets them right, I really wouldn't mind them staying on as admin. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- @King of Hearts: changes to the inactivity policy have been quite contentious, but feel free to start a discussion at WT:ADMIN. — xaosflux Talk 16:43, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- IMO this is perhaps a policy that should be revisited. Basically, certain users are immediately ineligible for resysop at the time of desysop. To avoid edge cases where a single edit or admin action makes the difference (feels a lot like WP:LAWYER to me), we should instead make the requirements something like 500 edits and 100 admin actions in the last 5 years. If you fail to reach either threshold in 4 years, you get a warning to increase your activity in the next year. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:41, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Xaosflux, I saw the most recent messages, thanks. I'm not sure why we dropped the mention of the three year stipulation at some point since 2015, but it was a poor decision. The whole point of these messages is to encourage admins to return to adminning, not to play "Gotcha". It [well, a more accurate version] should be reinstated immediately.
There is a wider problem. That you'll be dropping warnings on people's talk pages that they cannot actually respond to as the three year period they previously were wrongly informed about, and then not informed about, has now expired. That's a policy problem. But the problems stem from the same place: lack of focus on what should be the prime aim, which is getting admins to edit again. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Dweller: UninvitedCompany updated that in 2018 with the rewording that was encouraging inactive admins to "to rejoin the project in earnest". — xaosflux Talk 16:51, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Regarding the warning notes, if during the time we send at least 2 talk messages and 2 emails (unless they disable email) the inactive admin does any edit or action, the clock resets for at least a year already. — xaosflux Talk 16:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- Dweller, you do not need sysop tools to edit. Nihlus 16:55, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- People are getting upset on behalf of the OP, but I note they seem to have graciously accepted that the rules changed while they were taking an extremely prolonged break from doing admin work and barely participating in the project at all. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:42, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
The rationale behind removing the specifics of the resysop criteria and replacing them with a link was as follows:
- The criteria had become complex enough that no short summary would be accurate in all situations, and including the text would give undue weight to the mechanical aspects of re-sysopping
- The criteria are subject to change. Including the specifics in the talk page note created a perceived obligation for the project to restore adminship under the terms of the re-sysopping rules in place at the time adminship was lost due to inactivity.
- The focus, then as now, should be on encouraging people to re-engage with the project or stay engaged with the project, rather than make token edits. There are extensive examples of admins making token edits and token administrative actions, when facing the end of the inactivity window, and only a tiny handful of people who have left the project then genuinely rejoined.
I have in the past made a concerted effort to get former contributors to re-engage and sent out over a dozen individually written emails and talk page messages. Of these, I received one reply, from a person who opted to voluntarily resign rather than lose adminship for inactivity, and was ignored in all other cases, even though in some cases the editor in question returned long enough to make a token edit. I have concluded that it simply isn't realistic to try to get people to rejoin. People go through life changes, they graduate, they get jobs, they have kids, whatever the case may be -- and move on to other interests. UninvitedCompany 15:57, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- I've tried following up with admins that come off of the monthly Wikipedia:Inactive administrators list, welcoming them back - but when it is one that is just here to make their annual token edit my messages were ignored so I gave up. — xaosflux Talk 17:12, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- I'm of the view that inactivity messages or policy changes don't need to be to delivered at all. As a courtesy, I don't mind definitely - but old or inaccurate information (if any) being sent should have no bearing on the actual outcome, as the onus is on the administrator and not whoever is sending out the communication to remain aware of policy. --qedk (t 愛 c) 17:25, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- Uh, I think QEDK nails it here. With the best will in the world—and notwithstanding, or criticizing, the appeal to retain old hands—it's not, wasn't, and can never be our responsibility to make editors active; stop them being inactive, or ensure that they retain institutional knowledge when they change from one status to the other. It's theirs. Our courtesy note is just that—a courtesy—but if it's become, basically, an advisory note on how to retain the tools without practical reengagement then I don't really see what good is being done by it.I suspect that the effort that goes into attempting to retain legacy admins might be better spent on recruitment. With minimal exceptions, I can assure you that anyone who successfully goes through the mincing machine nowadays does not just become an admin: they become an active one. If it's about where to devote our resources (that is, or personal energies), I think the latter, rather than the former, provide more bang for our metaphorical buck.Our efforts should go into recruiting new admins; old admins should look to themselves. ——Serial 17:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Like +1 PackMecEng (talk) 17:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)- I think you're only partly right here Serial. I think one of the best pools of new editors we have is re-engaging people who had edited productively in the past. That's because the pool of people who are mission aligned and competent (or have the ability to be competent) is not huge to begin with. Looking at the results of edit-a-thons it's not hard to get people to make an edit or two but the longterm benefits from there seem unclear to me from the data I've seen. So I agree we shouldn't be attempting to retain legacy admins. But I do think we should expend effort to get legacy admins (and other previously active and productive but now dormant editors) to re-engage and setting up supports (and welcomes!) when they do. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- Almost every current and former admin has been an active admin at some point, and some of our oldest admins, those from about fifteen years ago, include some of our youngest admins in real life. In forty years time I will be long gone, but some of our admins who were adolescents fifteen years ago will be pensioners with time on their hands. Of course we need to engage newbies and I would like to see lots of people who joined in the modern era run RFAs, ignoring bots, we currently have 9 admins who first created their accounts in 2017 or 2018, none from the class of 2016, and I'm sure there are plenty from that era who would pass RFA if they ran. But longterm retention of volunteers is part of how most real life voluntary organisations succeed. If Wikipedia is going to be around for the longterm we need to keep an open door both for returning oldtimers and for complete newbies, especially those young enough to take breaks for relationships, qualifications, careers and kids. ϢereSpielChequers 19:05, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think it is clear we have already engaged whomever we could engage, except for a (pretty little) influx of young people who several years ago just could not be editing. Yes, sure, we can have get somebody from underrepresented groups here and there, may be, but we are nmot in 2007 when it was not uncommon to find somebody who has never heard about Wipkipedia. We will not engage new people without some structural changes. And without engaging new editors we are not going to have new admins.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:58, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- Uh, I think QEDK nails it here. With the best will in the world—and notwithstanding, or criticizing, the appeal to retain old hands—it's not, wasn't, and can never be our responsibility to make editors active; stop them being inactive, or ensure that they retain institutional knowledge when they change from one status to the other. It's theirs. Our courtesy note is just that—a courtesy—but if it's become, basically, an advisory note on how to retain the tools without practical reengagement then I don't really see what good is being done by it.I suspect that the effort that goes into attempting to retain legacy admins might be better spent on recruitment. With minimal exceptions, I can assure you that anyone who successfully goes through the mincing machine nowadays does not just become an admin: they become an active one. If it's about where to devote our resources (that is, or personal energies), I think the latter, rather than the former, provide more bang for our metaphorical buck.Our efforts should go into recruiting new admins; old admins should look to themselves. ——Serial 17:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- @QEDK: The inactivity messages are required by policy. There was a consensus at the time the inactivity policy was adopted that it would be petty to remove adminship without sufficient notification. The goal was to give the editor in question an opportunity to remain an administrator by making some edits. Attempts to change this and other aspects of the policy have been contentious. UninvitedCompany 22:08, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- @UninvitedCompany: Yes, I'm aware of the policy, I was simply stating my perspective. Also, as far as I'm aware, the removal notifications sent now are only for procedural removals and as such are only to notify inactive admins of the same - there is no imposition to inform about 3-year inactivity (but we do include that in good faith) and ask them to contribute if they wish to retain the rights. I really don't think that as long as notices are sent out at all, that the onus can be on the person delivering the notice, seems like too much responsibility for good-faith courtesy. --qedk (t 愛 c) 09:58, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- FWIW, these are mostly delivered by a bot, using a template - so if we want to have the notices include something new please put it in to Template:Inactive admin. — xaosflux Talk 11:47, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- @UninvitedCompany: Yes, I'm aware of the policy, I was simply stating my perspective. Also, as far as I'm aware, the removal notifications sent now are only for procedural removals and as such are only to notify inactive admins of the same - there is no imposition to inform about 3-year inactivity (but we do include that in good faith) and ask them to contribute if they wish to retain the rights. I really don't think that as long as notices are sent out at all, that the onus can be on the person delivering the notice, seems like too much responsibility for good-faith courtesy. --qedk (t 愛 c) 09:58, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
On Gaming Admins, Crats, and Dispute Resolution[edit]
There has been some talk on this page of Gaming Admins (I take it something like, a small number who annually make a few edits once a year, maybe there are other scenarios). There has also been talk of the Crats notice, and for some commentators, it has been claimed that the Crats notice raises a kind of shield for the missing/inactive (something like, 'do the minimum and your golden, nothing can touch you' or 'we are making a promise to you'). I take it, the last para of RESYSOP was added in the most recent major overhaul, to try get Crats to address some of the Gaming Admins issue in some cases.
Tying these threads together: Is there anything, right now preventing WP:Dispute Resolution: going to the talk page of the admin (who may or may not at some point have gotten a Crats notice) who is suspected of gaming, asking pertinent questions, seeing if the discussion is compliant with AdminACT, etc. expectations, and running it as far as it may need to go, including Arbcom? If this is feasible, wouldn't this be a better way to proceed then try to do another major overhaul of policy, or is there some policy/practice change that is needed to make such DR feasible? -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:07, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- To be honest, I'm not sure that they'd need to do much more than point to WP:VOL at this point. On the assumption they didn't wildly confess of course :) ——Serial 10:44, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Perhaps but if people are going around resenting 'gamers', and tying the project up in long discussions because of 'gamers', some might expect good faith admins to take seriously the issues and be thoughtful and open about it, rather than respond, 'you can't touch me' -- and gaming, if true, is a serous lapse that needs some resolution. At any rate, someone who is concerned has to try to address it directly, or we just have to stop talking about it, and redoing policy and redoing policy. Maybe the thing is to open the discussion with the admin and see where it goes, and whatever policy issues or changes to policy issues will become clearer. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
The policy sounds fine, and the least of the problems regarding admins. And I wouldn't assign a negative word like "gaming" to an inactive admin just doing what is logical...the minimum to keep the tools. Probably the most whacky thing is the notices you are giving inactive admins reminding and encouraging them to "game". Only the most detached and inactive admins need a notice like that so you are working against a policy that seems well designed to let those folks self-select out. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Once again, I ask what the underlying problem is that we are trying to address. I think that the principle should always be encouraging people to return to activity and any steps we take that could be part of that should be encouraged, not decried. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:59, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- What don't you get about intro laying out the problem? There are people going around talking about admins who are, in the telling, in serious 'bad faith;' and there have been efforts to rejigger policy. That is clearly damaging to admins, to crats and the project, who look completely untrustworthy (as as group) or boobs for trusting people others don't trust.
- (As for encouraging return (which seems largely off-topic in this section - we are discussing the terms of return, and every Crat should already know there are terms of return and Admin standards, whether they approve or not) fine, but the idea that any Crat would reject the terms of return for the community's administrators, is in total breach of Crats good-faith and abusive by Crats.) Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:22, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Ultimately, except for the minority who would have supported intentionally not notifying people in November 2019, we messed up as a community. In the end we have to choose between two unpalatable alternatives, betraying the trust of the RfC !voters or betraying the trust of ex-admins to whom we had promised would receive the tools back on request under certain conditions. There is a legitimate debate over which option is less bad, but don't pretend that there is no debate to be had. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 15:42, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but, there is another section on this page and at VPP to debate that. This section is about the future of handling this.
- (As for the community messing up -- I think that is wrong on several levels, and the attempt to somehow blame people who put in the work and the time to achieve a consensus the project asked them to achieve on behalf of the community is the farthest thing from encouraging people to continue to participate). Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:54, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I believe that in the future, we should change the inactivity policy so that we no longer desysop admins with a conditional promise to return the tools upon request. Under my 500/100 rule proposed above, a desysopped admin would be ineligible to ask for the tools back starting day one. If a system without conditional resysop had been in place at the time of the November 2019 RfC, and people agreed to shorten the inactivity threshold from three to two years, there's no way the RfC would have concluded without considering the fate of the admins who would fall out of compliance. (Do we desysop them immediately? Give them a grace period? etc.) -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:56, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Fine. It's evident that there are many 'good ideas' for the pedia from many people, all the time -- but the rubber hits the road in the hard work of making consensus.
- When one thinks about the number of people needed to be involved over many months (sometimes years) from different Engvars and life experiences (who necessarily fret over commas, clauses, small picture and big picture), policy making consensus to adopt even a single sentence that is just-so, is a bit of a minor miracle. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:29, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- I believe that in the future, we should change the inactivity policy so that we no longer desysop admins with a conditional promise to return the tools upon request. Under my 500/100 rule proposed above, a desysopped admin would be ineligible to ask for the tools back starting day one. If a system without conditional resysop had been in place at the time of the November 2019 RfC, and people agreed to shorten the inactivity threshold from three to two years, there's no way the RfC would have concluded without considering the fate of the admins who would fall out of compliance. (Do we desysop them immediately? Give them a grace period? etc.) -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:56, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- King of Hearts, I will point out again that the claim we did not notify people isn’t accurate. This was included in the admins newsletter, which has been the standard way to notify people of changes to WP:ADMIN for going on three years. That the community has a standardized distribution list for these changes instead of relying on a special one anytime there’s a change isn’t a bad thing. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:54, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- The affected users were informed of the resysop policy at the time of desysop via their talk page and email. Anything which overrides those instructions should follow the same notification procedure. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 21:02, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I disagree. There’s a standard notification procedure for these type of changes now. We don’t need to create a ton of work when there’s a streamlined process for this. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:13, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- The affected users were informed of the resysop policy at the time of desysop via their talk page and email. Anything which overrides those instructions should follow the same notification procedure. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 21:02, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Ultimately, except for the minority who would have supported intentionally not notifying people in November 2019, we messed up as a community. In the end we have to choose between two unpalatable alternatives, betraying the trust of the RfC !voters or betraying the trust of ex-admins to whom we had promised would receive the tools back on request under certain conditions. There is a legitimate debate over which option is less bad, but don't pretend that there is no debate to be had. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 15:42, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Dweller, I appreciate that point of view, but
the entirea major problem here is that for non-sysops it feels incredibly unfair that people who do NOTHING -- like, literally nothing for ten years, sometimes -- get this flag that like it or not confers at least the appearance of authority. Some may think they shouldn't feel that way, but the fact is they do, and it's a morale issue, and their feelings need to be respected and not dismissed. - And honestly I don't want someone who hasn't edited in ten years or even 3 to be doing really much of anything adminny of any importance for at minimum months while they learn what's changed. So, no, I don't want people to 'return to activity' without a solid period of contributing and relearning. I do not see it as harmful to anyone to expect that, if they really do intend to start editing again. The only people it even affects are those who would either not actually start editing again or start crashing about like a bull in a china shop. So they have to go six months without the flag. To me this does not seem like a big deal. —valereee (talk) 16:56, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee, the thing that is incredibly unfair is that fifteen years ago, good editors were quickly given +sysop, and now this no longer happens. And back in the day, policy changed a lot more and a lot faster than it changes now. I don't actually think an admin leaving for three years will miss much. At the same time, Wikipedia is so vast that even for active users there will be areas they haven't touched in years. Having said that, I would prefer a model of "be away as long as you like, and then be eligible for the tools six months after your return" to our current model of giving back the sysop flag to some people immediately, and to other people never. —Kusma (t·c) 22:11, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Kusma, fifteen years ago most people bought into the idea that adminship was no big deal. That was a really nice ideal, but it was never true, and thinking has changed. I don't think it's unfair that wp's sysopping requirements have changed as a result. I agree with your proposed model. —valereee (talk) 23:46, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Kusma: I like the idea of your proposed model in general, but I think there should be a provision for short-term absences. Say something like: immediate restoration if you have been away less than six months and last admin action within 12 months, and restoration after 3 months if the absence was between 6 and 12 months and last admin action within 12 months, restoration after 6 months if absence longer than 12 months and last admin action within 3 years. RFA in all cases with no admin activity within 3 years (all with the standard 24 hour wait, crat consensus, etc. as now). Thryduulf (talk) 10:33, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Valeree I don't agree with you that but the entire problem here is that for non-sysops it feels incredibly unfair that people who do NOTHING -- like, literally nothing for ten years, sometimes -- get this flag that like it or not confers at least the appearance of authority If that was the case there wouldn't have been such resistance to the resysop that was requested a few days ago by someone's whose last 1500 edits go back a lot less than ten years. The problem in my view is that we are conflating several different problems - a security one, with a known risk of accounts being compromised and good reason to think that long inactive accounts are more vulnerable than most; A concern that longterm admins are at risk of drifting away from community norms (peak desysopping doesn't come in an admin's early years, it comes after they have been an admin for several years, and that was true even before we started desysopping the inactives); A concern that adminship should be a volunteer role that one does when one can but which can be set temporarily aside when life calls you elsewhere, versus a view I consider would only make sense if we offered admins a salary; a concern that RFA is broken and that only through a steady trickle of returnees are we able to maintain the admin cadre, and the counterview that you express that RFA is broken and it seems unfair that those who passed when it was easy are still the core of our admin cadre. That probably isn't all of them, but the entire problem is much more complex than any one of those factors. One thing that might help would be a bit of research, what proportion of the current admin workload is taken up by people who have taken a break of 12 months or longer since their RFA, and what proportion by people who would have been desysopped under another proposal, and what proportion by admins who have consistently remained active since their RFAs. ϢereSpielChequers 15:52, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- WereSpielChequers, I’ll back off on ‘the entire problem’ to ‘a major problem.’ But this request would have been a problem. Yes, their last 1500 edits go back less than 10 years, but that’s a pretty low bar for someone who started editing in 2013. If you remove the last few days’ edits, their last 10 edits go back to 2017 and their last 20 to 2016. They haven’t been meaningfully engaged here in years. I am not arguing this means they shouldn’t be able to contribute and start using admin tools again. I’m arguing it's not outrageous to ask people to show us they do indeed intend to actually contribute. —valereee (talk) 18:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- valereee I think that is now being covered by WP:RESYSOP #7, no? –xenotalk 18:57, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- Xeno, yes, I do think it's covered by that. For me -- and this is just me, and it's also not a commentary on any decision any bureaucrat has made -- is how does a bureaucrat make that assessment? I'd like to see bureaucrats saying, "Hey, welcome back, We'd love to resysop you but I'd like to make sure you're really back. Can we put this on hold for a few months?" —valereee (talk) 19:12, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- (EC) Thanks Valeree. I suspect that a compromise policy is possible, something like "two weeks of active editing for each year of absence/inactivity" that would balance Wikipedia's need for admins with the desire of some people to restrict the mop to active editors. One interesting bit of research that might shift people one way or the other would be to look at our last fifty resysops and see how active those people subsequently were. ϢereSpielChequers 19:31, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- WereSpielChequers, I actually went through the most recent sysops at a previous recent discussion. The analysis is here. Of 18 resysops I looked at, about 1/4 were very productive, another 1/4 had resumed minimal activity, and half weren't editing really at all. To me this is worth encouraging -- 25% returning to editing is excellent, IMO -- but that 1/2 who are just goldbricking? That's what causes infuriation. —valereee (talk) 20:02, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- There's a very clear pattern in the data you linked to. Namely, every admin (on that list) who was originally sysopped after/including 2010 was significantly active after resysop. Jack, above, is looking to follow this pattern (although not resysopped). Most pre-2010 admins that were resysopped were not active afterwards. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- WereSpielChequers, I actually went through the most recent sysops at a previous recent discussion. The analysis is here. Of 18 resysops I looked at, about 1/4 were very productive, another 1/4 had resumed minimal activity, and half weren't editing really at all. To me this is worth encouraging -- 25% returning to editing is excellent, IMO -- but that 1/2 who are just goldbricking? That's what causes infuriation. —valereee (talk) 20:02, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- (EC) Thanks Valeree. I suspect that a compromise policy is possible, something like "two weeks of active editing for each year of absence/inactivity" that would balance Wikipedia's need for admins with the desire of some people to restrict the mop to active editors. One interesting bit of research that might shift people one way or the other would be to look at our last fifty resysops and see how active those people subsequently were. ϢereSpielChequers 19:31, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Valereee: The new procedure is less than a year old - how many requests have we had since the implementation that turned on this rule? (I found this one, where SilkTork's response is pretty much what you're hoping for.) –xenotalk 15:49, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- Xeno, yes, that's exactly right. The question of course is whether the editor in question would have started to contribute again if they'd been resysopped, but was upset about it and that's why they haven't. It's unknowable. ProcrastinatingReader, oh, very interesting! Though actually there are three resysops who aren't on that list (because the resysoppings had been so recent, I didn't think it was useful data.) Those three were all originally sysopped by 2007. One is regularly making up to 1000 edits per month, one is averaging 75 edits per month, and one hasn't edited since October. —valereee (talk) 17:41, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- Based on that data I think there's some strong negative correlation between admins who passed after Wikipedia became more well known / RfA got tougher, and low activity levels after returning from activity. And this correlation makes sense, I suppose. I'm in the middle with this whole inactivity thing. The gaming admins need to be kept far away from the hats they wish to retain (for whatever reason), and the honest and competent admins who return from a break should be allowed to regain tools to help them keep the wiki going, without having to go through the RfA process. (sidenote: that people in WT:RfA were saying they're planning to nominate people in September (ie 3 months away, at the time) shows an issue with the process: it shouldn't be like a campaign)
- It may seem unfair, but an inactivity policy which can address that correlation in data is probably more likely to achieve the goal of keeping good returning admins, whilst not giving the gamers their hats back. It might have some false positives, sure, but we already have false positives (eg the case of Jack above) - they can always re-run at RfA for community approval. Nothing against old admins, many are great, but that data would suggest the returning ones (at least the ones that basically became inactive before 2010, regardless of sysop year) don't tend to stick around, and were confirmed under a much weaker vetting process anyway. Some returned with questionable admin actions. Fairest method is maybe by judging how active they were before they became inactive, irrelevant of year. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:03, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- Xeno, yes, that's exactly right. The question of course is whether the editor in question would have started to contribute again if they'd been resysopped, but was upset about it and that's why they haven't. It's unknowable. ProcrastinatingReader, oh, very interesting! Though actually there are three resysops who aren't on that list (because the resysoppings had been so recent, I didn't think it was useful data.) Those three were all originally sysopped by 2007. One is regularly making up to 1000 edits per month, one is averaging 75 edits per month, and one hasn't edited since October. —valereee (talk) 17:41, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- Xeno, yes, I do think it's covered by that. For me -- and this is just me, and it's also not a commentary on any decision any bureaucrat has made -- is how does a bureaucrat make that assessment? I'd like to see bureaucrats saying, "Hey, welcome back, We'd love to resysop you but I'd like to make sure you're really back. Can we put this on hold for a few months?" —valereee (talk) 19:12, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- WereSpielChequers, I’ll back off on ‘the entire problem’ to ‘a major problem.’ But this request would have been a problem. Yes, their last 1500 edits go back less than 10 years, but that’s a pretty low bar for someone who started editing in 2013. If you remove the last few days’ edits, their last 10 edits go back to 2017 and their last 20 to 2016. They haven’t been meaningfully engaged here in years. I am not arguing this means they shouldn’t be able to contribute and start using admin tools again. I’m arguing it's not outrageous to ask people to show us they do indeed intend to actually contribute. —valereee (talk) 18:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee, the thing that is incredibly unfair is that fifteen years ago, good editors were quickly given +sysop, and now this no longer happens. And back in the day, policy changed a lot more and a lot faster than it changes now. I don't actually think an admin leaving for three years will miss much. At the same time, Wikipedia is so vast that even for active users there will be areas they haven't touched in years. Having said that, I would prefer a model of "be away as long as you like, and then be eligible for the tools six months after your return" to our current model of giving back the sysop flag to some people immediately, and to other people never. —Kusma (t·c) 22:11, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- The current system is easy to game, but my experience has been that it is actually very few admins who really blatantly do so, and without exception they are old-school pre-2007 admins from the "no big deal/cowboy admin" era, and even most of them have by now finally realized that there is little point in making edits once a year for no reason other than to retain tools you don't use. The five year rule was at first taking about 2 admins out of play each month, as time has gone by that number has gone down to about one every two months, so I would say that has proven to be effective in thinning the ranks of "admins in name only" from the bad old days. I do think we could stop the notifications entirely at this point as the basic standard that you must at least edit once a year has been policy for nine years now and we expect admins to be aware of that by now. Those very few who may remain purely to game the system would have to rely on themselves to remember to do so instead of being prompted to. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:41, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Right, as this was my original intention in the previous discussion. If you send one mass notification to every current administrator, and former administrators on the bubble of not being able to re-sysop, that the policy has changed then you've covered the entirety of everyone who needs to know and you could stop with notifications all together, as everyone has been informed at least once. — Moe Epsilon 07:35, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm an admin who was inactive for many years. When I was dealing with two little kids and a thesis I only made very occasional edits. Then, in 2019, I had more time for this again and was happy to be back. One of the things that pulled me back in was that I still had the admin bit - a reminder that I was at one point asked to help out around here so I feel some sense of obligation to try to do a little bit of that when I can. Helping to pull old veterans back in might be a net positive, even if we're sometimes embarrassingly rusty... Haukur (talk) 21:47, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Resysop Request (SQL)[edit]
- SQL (current rights · rights management · rights log (local) · rights log (global/meta) · block log)
- Things are calming down a lot at work, and I have time available for the project again. SQLQuery me! 20:43, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think I can support this request because SQL has problems with tables. —CYBERPOWER (Chat) 21:13, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think I can support this request because I just don't like SQL, and besides what would User:MongoDB think of me. --qedk (t 愛 c) 09:42, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
- Related concern. I don't think SQL is eligible for resysopping.
a bureaucrat should be reasonably convinced that the user has returned to activity or intends to return to activity as an editor
; this user is actually, to quote our article "a domain-specific language used in programming". Otherwise I'm very excited to have them back. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:47, 30 July 2020 (UTC)- Would it not be a good idea to look at the query execution plan first? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:14, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
- Looks like most of us at User:Radiant!/Classification of admins would be in big trouble then. bibliomaniac15 02:08, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
update sql set admin = 'Y';Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:40, 31 July 2020 (UTC)- A table per user? Sounds like SQL abuse. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:46, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
- I'm glad to see SQL is joining the inner ranks again. GeneralNotability (talk) 14:06, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
- A table per user? Sounds like SQL abuse. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:46, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
- Related concern. I don't think SQL is eligible for resysopping.
- Excellent news! GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:17, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- So am I. Welcome back, SQL! I'm glad my nudging came true
--TheSandDoctor Talk 06:05, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- So am I. Welcome back, SQL! I'm glad my nudging came true
- Everything seems in order, standard 24 hour hold. — xaosflux Talk 21:48, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- Very nice! Reaper Eternal (talk) 18:41, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Inactive administrators/2020#August 2020[edit]
The following inactive administrators are being desysoped due to inactivity. Thank you for your service.
- Philg88 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Just Chilling (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Viajero (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Last admin action: 2006
- — xaosflux Talk 00:05, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- I hope Just Chilling is okay. He was very active until literally one day he stopped. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:08, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Desysop request (Angela)[edit]
Angela (current rights · rights management · rights log (local) · rights log (global/meta) · block log)
Hello. I don't imagine being active here in the near future so I would like to request my admin rights be removed. Thank you. Angela (talk) 23:17, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
DoneThanks for your service! bibliomaniac15 23:25, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Having been here since 2003 and having played such an important, instrumental role in the development of Wikipedia in the early days, your presence here will definitely be missed. Best wishes in the future! —k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 00:10, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for all you've done for the Wikimedia movement. I still remember the time in 2006 you helped me with an issue with logging in. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:19, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
